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Discussion: For those in favor of easier respects/spec templates, and were in favor of fast travelling between dungeons, seeing the current implementation as meaningless obstacles. What of leveling? (forum.stellarcastle.net)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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cross-posted from: https://forum.stellarcastle.net/post/6500

There's contention within the diablo 4 community right now seemingly by two camps of players: the ones that immerse into their characters and want more commitment into their choices, and the other camp who want to slay hordes of demons with little to obstruction or disruption to that gameplay loop.

I am curious as to what your thoughts on the obstacle leveling brings and what meaning it has that is separate from other obstacles that take up time, like the current respec implementation as well as the soon-to-be trivialized nightmare dungeon hopping?

For honesty, I've been completely against the push for trivializing these things as I am a type of player that likes their verisimilitude within the games they play, especially those with the "RPG" acronym somewhere in its genre, no matter how light.

I'm struggling to find why one is okay yet the others are not, and I'm looking for a healthy discussion.

Edit: if you can't comment due to language settings PM me and let me know!

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Leveling is an expected part of the ARPG experience, and it comes before the endgame. When it comes to the endgame itself, I don't mind some friction, but it's important where that friction is placed. If I just want to log on and mindlessly kill monsters for a couple of hours, there shouldn't be anything discouraging me from just turning my brain off and doing that. Diablo 4 feels like it places obstacles between players and the main activity of the game.

An example of friction done well is PoE. Crafting and trading are both time consuming and sometimes tedious experiences, but blasting maps is always just a click away.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i am new to diablo, but not new to gaming, or a similar gameplay loop coming from the borderlands series, but i don't see how there are too many obstacles...

what's preventing you from just logging on and running some dungeons or doing some pve events?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nothing is preventing you from doing it, but there's friction between each one.

In a game like last epoch or poe, you hop in your map/monolith, blast it, exit, dump your shit in your stash (which is right next to where you go in and come out), then go right in the next one.

That last part is where diablo stumbles. There's too much downtime between each dungeon. Too much busywork, not enough demon killing.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

i haven't really played those, but the 'busy-work' in d4 is on par w/ bl2/3, so different expectations i guess.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I generally like the idea of easier respecs and want something like a load out system in D4. Personally, I don't like RPGs that lock you into a certain role because I just think it's a pointless waste of time having to start a brand new character just because you want to experiment with everything the game has to offer. Plus, people can learn multiple things / become multiple roles in real life, why can't I do that in a videogame?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I'm the complete opposite. If the game and skills were perfectly balanced, I'd be fine with brutal requirements for changing skills. However they are not, so there needs to be a way to switch an non viable choice into a better one or to adjust to patches.

And in my opinion switching talents around is already super easy and cheap (whereas the cost and work required for switching aspects is a step too annoying and prohibitive in my opinion - especially considering how build defining they can be).

If switching stuff around gets too easy (like a load out system) the identity of characters vanishes. Which for me is an important part of a character.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

there are a couple things I see differently here. Making respeccing easier makes those choices have less meaning since you can change them so easily. This further diminishes the idea of "leveling" and "building" characters because without making those character-defining choices as you level, what is there to "build" when "building a character?". leveling also then becomes an arbitrary barrier that serves to just lock content behind. Which makes me wonder why we are okay with leveling if it's yet another time waster for content?

and I find it interesting that you don't like being locked into a role in a "roleplaying game." This is I think another thing where there just are two different perspectives. I'm building. a specific character who excels at certain things that others of my kind do not. I feel like the RPG portion of ARPG is getting lost in the genre.

yes you say we in real life can learn to do new things, but I don't think you can argue that we can do all things, even in a given "field" or "class.". and even if you did do all things, can you say you'd do them all well? I just don't agree that it's a reflection of real life that you can drop all of your learned skills to master another. it can often take decades to master a particular practice.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I am not sure why you think not being locked into your character choices means you're not building. Every time you change your skills you're building a character that can defeat the next wave of enemies you encounter. I guess I don't see why building has to mean you can't go back and pick up new skills.

I just don’t agree that it’s a reflection of real life that you can drop all of your learned skills to master another.

I think of it as you're now dedicating all of your time towards learning another skill and as a result you're getting rusty with what you've learned before. Your level can be considered a marker of your overall wisdom. You pick up many skills over the course of your life and the more time you dedicate to certain skills the better you are at them, and others get rusty. That's what I think of Diablo 4's skill tree. Every time you reconfigure it, you're practicing more with some skills and allowing others to languish.

Plus, in a game where people are gaining powers by doing rituals and summoning demons, it seems absolutely silly that you can't master new skills simply because you're already an expert at another.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

it’s a pointless waste of time having to start a brand new character just because you want to experiment with everything the game has to offer.

But how else can they get you to spend more time in-game and increase the chance that you might just wander on over to the MTX shop and give them money? /s

I've been enjoying the game, but I'm already starting to feel like some of these time consuming processes have been put in just for this reason. Why would you buy horse armor if you're not riding around all that much?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Blizzard has never locked mechanics behind paywalls, outside of expansions which are to be expected. This isn’t a freeToPlay game from rando company, and until it is proven otherwise there shouldn’t be a reason to expect that behavior to manifest.

Also envy and pride both do much more to drive those purchases rather than time spent doing a single mechanic. You see some cool armor, and want to show it off, you want to get that sword before it disappears to show that you have something no one else can get.

Also, saying something people rarely use doesn’t drive people to want to pay money for upgrades is about the most obvious take. Of course people only care or want to improve areas that they use the most. Would you use in game currency for a niche area or for something you use frequently? ARPGs are about the grind and by the nature of a grind it means devoting time to it. Would you rather you logged in and could select those drip from a menu and then move on with your day?