Hey folks
I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.
I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.
Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:
- Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
- Use arguments rather than calling people names
- Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual
With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.
On defederation in general
First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.
I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.
Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.
Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.
Regarding hexbear
Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.
The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.
My own experience with hexbear
I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.
Background
My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @[email protected]. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).
I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.
Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.
Hexbear user response
Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:
- Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
- Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
- Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier
I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.
Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: [email protected].
Hexbear admin response
After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
- They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
- They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
- They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways
Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.
I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.
Where thing stand right now
I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.
Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.
Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.
Maybe I can clear up some of your concerns or confusion around the "pro-Russia" stuff if you'd like me to?
I've read through some of the replies within this post, and I think I'm gradually getting the idea behind it, though I'd gladly take a more direct explanation or summary.
My main concern is just with modern Russia's government, and its more regressive aspects, along with their actions within the war with Ukraine.
But I'll absolutely state I'm not very knowledgeable on a lot of the details behind it, aside from Russia's news putting out whatever they can to justify their actions to their population, but I'd take correction if that part is off course.
For a bit of additional context, I've been living with my parents who have since 2016 been going further and further off the deep end of right wing conspiracies about everything, and one of the things I often notice from those places is an unwavering support for modern Russia, partly or mostly for said regressive aspects.
So because of that, I do have a level of bias against Russia, but again, I'll take a look at other points of view regarding it.
There's a couple of different aspects to it but I'll try and outline it as simply and clearly as possible, without getting deep into specific topics.
As communists (and our anarchist comrades overlap although there's definitely differences) we're mostly 'internationalists'. We don't believe that the most meaningful conflicts are between nation states, but between the class interests of the proletariat (workers, ordinary people basically) and capital (the class that owns the means of production, finance etc). A supermarket worker in France has more in common, in terms of their place in society, with a shop worker in China then either have with the people who own the big businesses they work for.
As internationalists we're anti-imperialists and the largest imperial power and global hegemon (the state that dominates most of the world) today is undoubtedly the USA. While this remains the case, it will continue crushing any anti-capitalist or anti-imperialist movement across thr world, so we want to see their control weakened. This is often referred to as 'multipolarity' meaning that instead of a single country that dominates, there's at least space for multiple powers, which forces more compromise and allows more space for individual movements and nations to survive or even thrive.
This is why we'll often refer to having 'critical support' for nations or political movements that don't ascribe to our communist ideals (equality, workers owning the means of production, proletarian democracy etc). The "critical" bit is the most important. It's "critical" like 'criticism', not like 'essential'. States like Russia and China becoming less vulnerable to and dependent on the USA helps to weaken their global dominance. So while we loathe Russia's scapegoating and attacks on LGBTQ+ people and that they're a capitalist state, we believe it's in the international interest that the USA doesn't succeed in it's attempts to destroy (or severely weaken) them and consolidate their own power.
We also tend to be 'historical materialists' and believe that the economic and material interests of people's lives are what shape politics and societies, not idealism. So we don't put any stock in the idea that nations are defined by the personal traits of their leaders for example, but by economic and political pressures within and on the people in the country. So we see the idea that the war in Ukraine is because Putin is evil and craves power as rather silly, for example. The reasons (and for Ukraine's decisions, an all nations for that matter) are more complicated and practical than that. We don't like Putin - he's a cynical if successful, member of the ultra-rich capitalist class that was given free reign to loot Russia by the US after the fall of the Soviet Union - but we also don't think it matters very much.
Different communists (and our anarchist comrades with whom there's a lot of overlap, but obviously differences too) might disagree on the best approaches and to what degree we should focus on these conflicts at all, but generally the above remains true. It's important to know that it's not a zero sum game though, and solidarity with the working class around the world is still most important.
So the sentiment you'll find in some Hexbear users' critical support for Russia is that we want an end to the war sooner rather than later. Because this war is terrible for the working class on both sides. And because we don't see any compelling evidence that Ukraine can win, even with NATO support. We want both sides at the negotiating table rather than on the battlefield ideally, but if the conditions don't allow the two sides to do that then we hope they'll change as quickly as possible, because the longer this goes on the worse it gets all around. Some of us see Russia as being the most able to force the other side to the table, but obviously we'd prefer they just saw the realities of the situation and did it now.
We also get a lot of shock at the fact that some of us think, in that situation, Ukraine would have to give independence and security guarantees to the Donbas & Crimea. Many of us think that given the realities of the civil war there over the last 8 years or so, plus this conflict, it's probably the only way to prevent retributory ethnic cleansing in the region. It has nothing to do with ideas of fairness or sovereignty or any other nebulous concept; it's about what's least worst for the working class there.
Obviously there's a broad variety of views held to different degrees and I'm not speaking for every Hexbear user. Also, people being people, we all express ourselves differently, especially when dealing with heavy subjects. Some of us find consolation in understanding the chaos of it all, some obsess over details for the illusion of control, others have a dark sense of humour about it etc.
I know that's long, but I hope it's clear and I wanted to try and explain a complex way of looking at the world as simply as possible without just throwing out a lot of jargon and assumptions.
I'm going to type this response out as I read to get a better sense of understanding, and go back over after I've read it all.
I've known some friends of mine that are more anarchy leaning, so I get that to a degree already. And funnily enough, that right wing conspiracy stuff my parents are addicted to kind of feigns at class solidarity, but then they get too lost in their hatred of basically anything that isn't cis straight white Christians etc. and go back to fighting amongst themselves in some kind of spiritual war between themselves and the "Satanists" they've made up to label their "enemy", so not really any progress there.
Summarizing the second part in my sort of unfancy and simpler way, the US really needs to stop trying to be this "world police" that it thinks it is, especially given the problems within the country itself, and let more different countries work together through compromise to contribute to progress in the world.
Third part, essentially "it may not be the best possible option, but it can be a step in the right direction in some way, and it's way better than letting more power and control be centralized in one place".
Fourth, pretty much "economy and material for the people, along with the pressures within and without their country, define politics and society, not their leader's ideals".
Fifth, different people have different ideologies on what is exactly best and how much the conflict should be focused on, but generally based on the previous points, and on class solidarity most of all, which I can agree with.
Sixth, basically we want the war to end sooner so the people caught up in it don't have to keep suffering through it, which I absolutely agree with. Though I will say what might seem possible is for Putin to lose support from the I guess "upper" class, realizing it's not worth the losses and putting an end to it, though that's being optimistic considering it's the same class that has enabled it to continue. Otherwise, it would probably take a force neither side seems quite capable of to end the sort of ongoing stalemate.
Again, open to correction here, I've not been too focused on the progress of things there, so the situation could easily have changed since I kept up with it.
Seventh, I get the sort of idea to it, again, it's putting the best, or in this case, the least bad, for all the people involved over what would supposedly be "best" for the state and upper class, which totally makes sense in that regard, though I think I'm not quite getting the whole idea of the paragraph across on my end.
And the last one, just basically saying the exact specifics differ for everyone, of course people are people, and everyone expresses what they think in their own unique interpretation, sort of like how I'm interpreting all this here and now for a better understanding. And those interpretations all have their equally unique reasons behind them, usually for some form of comfort or knowledge, or just trying to find humor in even the darkest of things.
And the last bit, I think you did well, and given what I've typed, it seems to have gotten across pretty decently from what I can tell anyway.
Yeah, you're definitely getting the broad strokes of it (and I didn't give you much more than that). I get it's a lot to take in all at once too.
First part - yeah you get it and you can see clearly why that kind of false class that the right sometimes peddles to people like your parents is bullshit. It's not for the benefit of them, it helps the rich who fund that kind of media keep the working class divided and not United against them. That's why they have to invent enemies like Satanists or whatever. It's the same way capitalists have always tried to break strikes (and still do) by trying to drive a wedge between different ethnicities in the workforce. It's the same reason any real communist is so opposed to any form of bigotry, we're workers regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender etc.
Second part - you're right, but we'd argue it goes much further than just the usual invasions and interventions as 'the world's policeman'. Its about the coups, the assinations, funding disinformation, sanction regimes, IMF debt, the dollar as global currency and plenty more. They use dozens of methods to bend the world to their will and punish those who step out of line.
Third part - yeah, that's it. Or sometimes just "this is the best realistic option, because the others are worse".
Fourth part - Yep, got it again.
Fifth part - totally.
Sixth - yeah basically. There's various reasons we don't that think that upper class has the incentive or ability to, one of them being that capitalists from all sides make a massive amount of money on war - so it's good for them, but it's not worth getting into all of them here.
Seventh - even if you didn't get the meaning of all the details, you understand the basics just fine. What you said was right again.
And the end bit, you got it spot on. I'm really glad it was clear and understandable.
On the second part, I kind of said "world police" as a more broad generalizion of all the stuff the government does for the sake of simplicity, but elaborating helps for those unaware of the extent of it.
On the sixth part, I ended up not recalling that being a thing, but as you bring it up, yeah, something probably should be done about the upper class being able to profit from violence, as that profit helps nobody except those who don't need it, and encourages more violence for a cycle of more profit and violence.
And I'm glad I got it as well as I did, I really enjoy understanding different people's perspectives and the reasoning behind them.
No problem on part two. You got it, I just wanted to add some extra context too because obviously we'd been focused on wars with the Ukraine stuff.
I've enjoy it too, I appreciate you asking and taking the time to go through it all with me.