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Chronicle the life and tale of the fediverse (+ matrix)

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Includes lore like how a instance got it's name, how an instance got defederated, how an admin got doxxed, fedihistory etc

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feddit.org defederated quokk.au for calling their mods zionists (lemmy.blahaj.zone)

submitted 2 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

60 comments fedilink hide all child comments

https://feddit.org/post/12851368

https://feddit.org/post/12529640

due to the previously communicated defamation campaign by quokk.au, which was later followed by defederation by them after we requested them to remove their censure, we have now defederated from quokk.au.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations.

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[–] [email protected] -1 points 1 day ago (11 children)

removing a post about making a distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism?

They don't remove posts or comments that do that. I am quite active on feddit and the general consensus on that instance is pretty pro-palestine. The vast majority of anti-zionist posts do not get removed.

What they (sometimes) remove though is comparions between nazi-germany and Zionism. The admins on that instance argued that doing this may breach German laws, so they decided to remove some of the most notorious comments about that.

I got some translation from their post on it about how they can’t tolerate “accusations” of being called zionists? What’s wrong with accusations? Removing the comment is sufficient evidence for it.

They removed posts because they fear they may violate german law. Also, feddit admins did not defederate from quokk.au because of the accusations - it is because one of their admins harrassed a feddit admin (calling them Nazi scum, wished death upon them - see my above comment) - then defederated quokk.au from feddit because of "Zionism" (which is so dumb if you ask me) - and then feddit defederated quokk.au back

Also there’s something there about such discussions being precarious because it’s against some german,swiss laws?

Holocaust denial/inversion/relativization is something (for good reason) illegal in Germany. Neonazis have been doing this for a long time and obviously it needs to be illegal. When it comes to Israel's war crimes obviously there is more nuance to this but there are boundaries too. As a german leftist I can say that a lot of us are more careful when it comes to language around the issue. There is a balancing act we have to do and I wish people outside could respect that.

Because it seems like “We will not discuss this because we don’t like this discussion”

In all honesty, this is how I feel about it. I am pro-palestine in pretty much every regard, but I have limits with the language I use. I recognize Zionism as the result of the jewish struggle of the 19th and 20th century. It does not mean I like it or I see it as an ideology that can bring about peace in the region. It also does not mean I justify any of the crimes Israel's government is doing. But it does mean that I don't compare it to Nazism. I don't like this discussion because it leads nowhere. Invalidating/inverting/relativizing the jewish struggle does nothing for the Palestinians and I feel annoyed that so many internet leftists insist so much on doing that. If there is no space for nuance, I am not interested in discussion

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

Thank you for the answer. I guess it's understandable. Though the original comment in this post doesn't deny the existence of an Israeli state.

But it does mean that I don’t compare it to Nazism.

This isn't the same as calling someone you don't like a Nazi. But even then, the term Nazi, in this day and age, no longer just means people who idolize Hitler and hate on Jews. Its use has expanded to include all those who are willing to genocide another group of people and more.

And though I can see the need to separate the semantics within Germany itself, due to its history and laws, its supposed misappropriation is an irrelevant discussion at this stage. A lot of Israeli's are very openly and loudly advocating for the erasure of the Palestinian people, even children and innocent people. It's not even a joke, that they are using the same terminologies and tactics. It is impossible to not conflate them with Nazis.

This isn't to deny the Jewish struggle, of course, this is to say that calling the Israeli government and stooges Nazis isn't an invalidation of the Jewish struggle. These people are, save for a time machine, literal Nazis (the IDF, the Israeli government and anyone advocating for the erasure of Palestinians).

You are arguing semantics when we are long past that.

Even then, it's a flimsy argument. It just feels like another measure to maintain a semblance of historical guilt by the government, not an actual effort to help the Jewish people. If you can show me where "misusing" the label Nazi is worse for the Jewish people and their struggles, than the literal genocide of the Palestinian people by a Jewish state, I'll change my mind.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 day ago (2 children)

this is to say that calling the Israeli government and stooges Nazis isn’t an invalidation of the Jewish struggle.

I am a lot more tolerant about calling the Israeli government and Israeli fascists Nazis. Semantically, one could make arguments against it, but at this time and day, I'd agree, I have no intention to defend them - they deserve the hatred.

Now, if someone calls the entirety of Zionism, or every Israeli Jew a Nazi is something I oppose. This would be a massive inversion of reality and I don't want to see that rhetoric on my instance. I know there is nuance and there are a number of things I'd be willing to concede - but I am glad that the most hateful and deranged comments get removed. What this quokk.au admin said is certainly in the territory of being deranged.

If you can show me where “misusing” the label Nazi is worse for the Jewish people and their struggles, than the literal genocide of the Palestinian people by a Jewish state, I’ll change my mind.

I would instead ask you to stop pitting two people's struggles against each other. We would never compare different types of struggles the same way. One thing is bad. Another thing is worse. But that second thing does not make the first thing okay. Especially when you have the privilege of not being part of either group. If you acknowledge that misusing Nazi labels (on the people oppressed by the Nazis) is wrong, then it follows that you cannot justify doing that by saying that there are other people who are worse off.

You are arguing semantics when we are long past that.

I hope we can concur that in this discussion, neither of us are helping the Palestinians in any kind of form. This whole thread is about a toxic lemmy admin who victimized themself for suffering consequences for their violent/insulting language. I'd feel a lot more comfortable in pro-palestinian spaces that can do without this sort of toxicity.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Israel couldn't exists without mass displacement and israel was funded because of zionism which they did. Israel since it's creation been oppresing palestinians and comiting war crime. Saying that we should just condemn Natanyaho is ignoring facts

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