4L3moNemo

:) beeing not a young person, beeing born in one of the soviet block countries (forced in to that block by force), having to learn commies litterature almost from zero grade and during the whole education system, later having finished bussines and economy studies in capitalism, now having a small IT bussiness, even your nickname (as it sounds) for me is behind the borderline of my tolerance. ;) Yet, I'm not trying to call you someone or even atack your beliefs by presumptions. The questions were just the questions, simply out of interest of how would someone who presents himself (socialist or comunist) would answer them. P.S. your comment (before this one) where you replyed my question by question, was quite good as for a discusion, even if you fall time to time into some magic asumptions about person behind questions. Anyway, I thank you for you effort when you answered the questions and presented your point of view on the subject. :)))

So you sugest that somebody living of money/ownership is a leach by definition. But what about someone who (lets simplify things, lets say he just) saved – money (by spending less), or time and resources (for example by efective barter exchange) and now has got plenty of it. By spending less now he got a bigger surpluss, you may even call it a profit comming from diferent (better or worse) priorities management of his. How's that bad? Why these coul'd not be invested? Work as a capital? Why if he can buy labour or aditional value on market for less he shouldn't do it? Why if somebody sells something at at a value he by himself doesn't appreciate – somebody else has to be blamed, taxed more? Aren't we trying to pray on more successful ones, and if it is so, then how is that diferent of them trying to pray on less risk taking ones, less rich ones?

P.S. I'm not suposing to abolish taxes or not keeping up available some social minimum (basic) services which are enabling people, giving them more oportunities to start. At the same time, I do not think we have to punish someone who is more efective or can make money out of the money, resources out of resources, or time out of his more efectively managed time. Someone who could exchange it into others resources or time, and even someone who automated this (or these proceses) by using his (or bought) mind on how to make it all work seamingly "without a further work" of his. I mean – invested.

Imaginary value of own labour and effort versus exchange value in the eyes of other market players. Your afore mentioned "labour theory of value" apprises the first but ignores the second (both as a component of some global-whole value essence, or as a standalone thing). :)

Are you sugesting (by refering to that theory) that "fair value for a labourer to get is" only the first? What about other questions I've rised?

Could you just comment instead of refering "read the book" and leave guesing of what do you exactly think or imply as answers? I have my opinions, I have my questions – now I'm fishing for others – looking for discusion, opinions, questions (why would I comment otherwise). You are able to keep a discussion, if you know the topic, arn't you? I mean without using an avoidance tool in style of "go read a bible or you have to have a belief and then you'll understand". Just talk, explain in your own words as you inderstand it, if you understand it, and if you have an opinion on questions asked at all.

P.S. answering to your: "This is a terrible gotcha and shows that you didn't even read the theory before you thought you could debunk it." Let's not fall so low as to the personal attacks ;) or conclusions about a person. You don't know what I have red and what not, to judge. A question is a question – it can be anounced even by a parrot. If you are to philosophize and a question is of current topic, and you are not a parrot yourself, then it should not be a problem to discuss it with logic and arguments by both sides. You see ;) I can do it also, well of course unless you are a parrot :)))

What is that "the full value" that worker should get? If for example I have worked my ass, building five garages, and now i rent four of them for someone doing busines in there with their own hammer and my multitool – what is the full value that the renter/worker should get? What is the full value if someone who rents my garage, bought his own tools, created workplace, found someone happy to make stools whole day for him and now only sells them? What is the full value if someone (garage owner, or renter with busines) decided, that 10 years of working (their ass) hard is enought and now they will live a bit slower, maybe even employing profesional manager to do their job. Where is the line?

I understand giving everybody as much equal oportunities as possible, enabling everybody equaly as much as possible – but that does not magicaly make them all work equaly hard, equaly skilled, equaly balance their work/life/family/free time, does not magicaly eaqualy balance them all taking same risks, responsibilities.

What's fair to take, to share with less efective (or happy) ones – that is the question? Should we make it harder for the faster ones, working harder ones, healthier ones?

How the fck not alowing to gain from someones earned capital or someones labour (by delegation of some tasks) will create equal oportunities? Whats wrong in and with curent democratic/capitalistic (semi social share and care policies having) system of western countries? System curently alowing workers to own shares and voting with their hands (as coowners) in business or voting by their feet and going to other busineses to work and own them (or building them themselves). Go and do?

Oh, but what if they work in my coat, in my barn, gather my mushrooms for a salary? He (worker/labourer) profits from my coat (it warms him, he saves expences not using his own), he doesn't have to face elements and has an enviroment and a way of (having a job) earning in my barn, and his coleague sells my mushrooms gathered by team, to convert it into the money.

So the worker profits from me. Profits from my labour put into the earnign of the coat, buying it, cleaning it, me saving (debting) and building a barn, aranging a mashrooms farm, finding people, taking risks, etc ... Are you (socialists/comunists) talking about abolishing "worker/labourer" now, cause he profits from capitalist farmer? :)

P.S. in scenario above, we would all earn our part, but if somebody wants to own any part more – of gear, buildings, organization, responsibility, risks – just buy shares, or vote by feet and build your own bussines.

So, folowing your theory, if ... I have a coat - it's "PERSONAL" property; I wash my coat myself - it's still "PERSONAL"; I rent my coat - it now becomes "PRIVATE" property; I ask someone to clean my coat for money - it's "PRIVATE" property (remember I'm still renting it); Somebody wears my coat, whilst gathers mushrooms (uses my coat in process of making value) to sell them latter - it (the coat) is "PRIVATE" property;

Questions:

1. Why should we abolish my coat? Wheres logic in that? And how, at the same time, does it magicaly can be mine PERSONAL, mine PRIVATE, and (in sugested future) a collectives property?

2. I mown someones lawn and they clean my coat (barter exchange) - my coat is PERSONAL or PRIVATE? How does that differ if money involved?

3. Now change the "coat" into the "factory" (a "garage", a "hammer", a "boat"), what's the diference?

That's (above) a good example of argumentation, iliustrating and beeing born out of that other cultural understanding of ethics I've talked about.

My answer is: show me that you can learn and think, show me good work ethics and the job is yours. Company will even sent you to (and pay for your) courses. You'll get my own time to explain things, to give you directions to resourses and themes, your coleagues will teach you on a go whilst collaborating and it all will hapen on company's time.

I'm not sure about their graduates and doing next projection may be hasty, wrong and anegtoticaly based only on limited exposure of cases, but ... But if they fake studies same as some of indian, suposedly "programmers", fake work experience in interviews and/or doing work given – the reason behind the large % unemployment of graduates maybe that they can't do shit. I mean, lacking quality of ethics results a wrong learned behaviour – cheat vs own (admit) reality and learn (bring on board effort) for the future.

P.S. Romance folows Latin – dad joke, year 999 since founding the city ;)

Romance Latinam sequitur.

/Pater iocus, annus CMXCIX ab urbe condita/