this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2024
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[–] [email protected] 142 points 2 months ago (5 children)

“Give it six months”

It only needed 3!

[–] [email protected] 93 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 56 points 2 months ago

Particularly unexpected, because 3! = 6.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago

That's because C++ is such a high performance language, it gets things done faster

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago (13 children)

After you've done some languages, they all look the same. Yes, some have interesting features like the indent-based blocking of Python, and I'll have to look up if the new language has "else if", "elsif", "elif", or whatever, but als long as it is coming from the family of ALGOL-like languages, it does not matter much. You'll learn the basic functions needed to get around, and off you go.

Just a few weeks ago, I started learning Python. Yes, this indenting takes some time to get used to. My son does Python for about a year now - he started with it at university. Maybe ten days after I started learning, I invited him to have a look at my first Python program. I have no idea what he expected. A "Hello, World" with a few extra features, maybe? Definitely not the 2.5k lines app I had written in my spare time, with GUI, databases, harvesting data from a web site with caching, and creating PDF files with optimized layout for the data I processed. In the end, it was just another programming language.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I guess you've never seen some of the 10-page template errors C++ compilers will generate. I don't think anything prepares you for that.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I've seen way worse. Imagine a project that uses C preprocessor structures to make a C-compiler provide a kind-of C++. Macros that are pages long, and if you forget a single bracket anywhere, your ten pages look like a romance novel.

Or VHDL synthesis messages. You've got no real control over them, 99.9% of the warnings are completely irrelevant, but one line in a 50k lines output could hint at a problem - if you only found it.

So far, the output of C or C++ compilers (except for the above-mentioned project) has not been a problem or me, but I'm doing this for about 40 years now, so I've got a bit of experience.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Yep, sadly I've been exposed to a few such codebases before. I certainly learned a lot about how NOT to design a project.

You've been at it longer than I have, but I've already had coworkers look at me like I'm a wizard for decoding their error message. You do get a feel for where the important parts of the error actually are over time. So much scrolling though...

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yeah this only really applies to Algol style imperative languages. Dependent types and say stack languages like idris and apl are dramatically different in their underlying axioms.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Jokes aside, I struggle more with abominations like JavaScript and even Python.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Do you have a minute for our lord and savoir TypeScript?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

As long as it can distinguish between int and uint - yesss!

[–] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

TypeScript is still built on JavaScript, all numbers are IEEE-754 doubles 🙃

Edit: Actually I lied, there are BigInts which are arbitrarily precise integers but I don't think there's a way to make them unsigned. There also might be a byte-array object that stores uint8 values but I'm not completely sure if I'm remembering that correctly.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Python has its quirks, but it’s much much cleaner than js or c++, not fair to drag it down with them imo

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think the thing with C++ is they have tried to maintain backward compatibility from Day 1. You can take a C++ program from the 80s (or heck, even a straight up C program), and there's a good chance it will compile as-is, which is rather astonishing considering modern C++ feels like a different language.

But I think this is what leads to a lot of the complexity as it stands? By contrast, I started Python in the Python 2 era, and when they switched to 3, I was like "Wow, did they just break hello world?" It's a different philosophy and has its trade-offs. By reinventing itself, it can get rid of the legacy cruft that never worked well or required hacky workarounds, but old code will not simply run under the new interpreter. You have to hope your migration tools are up to the task.

[–] 0x0 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

There were breaking changes between C and C++ (and some divergent evolution since the initial split) as well as breaking changes between different releases of C++ itself. I am not saying these never happened, but the powers that be controlling the standard have worked hard to minimize these for better or worse.

If I took one of my earliest ANSI C programs from the 80s and ran it through a C++23 compiler, I would probably need to remove a bunch of register statements and maybe check if an assumption of 16-bit int is going to land me in some trouble, but otherwise, I think it would build as long as it's not linking in any 3rd party libraries.

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 months ago

C is dangerous like your uncle who drinks and smokes. Y'wanna make a weedwhacker-powered skateboard? Bitchin'! Nail that fucker on there good, she'll be right. Get a bunch of C folks together and they'll avoid all the stupid easy ways to kill somebody, in service to building something properly dangerous. They'll raise the stakes from "accident" to "disaster." Whether or not it works, it's gonna blow people away.

C++ is dangerous like a quiet librarian who knows exactly which forbidden tomes you're looking for. He and his... associates... will gladly share all the dark magic you know how to ask about. They'll assure you, oh no no no, the power cosmic would never turn someone inside-out, without sufficient warning. They don't question why a loving god would allow the powers you crave. They will show you which runes to carve, and then, they will hand you the knife.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 months ago

This is so believable. You copy a few examples out of a textbook using cout and cin and it seems reasonably inline with other languages.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (3 children)

A friend of mine whose research group works on high throughout X-ray Crystallography had to learn C++ for his work, and he says that it was like "wrangling an unhappy horse".

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I'm not sure how I feel about someone controlling an X-ray machine with C++ when they haven't used the language before... At least it's not for use on humans.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

He doesn't directly control anything with C++ — it's just the data processing. The gist of X-ray Crystallography is that we can shoot some X-rays at a crystallised protein, that will scatter the X-rays due to diffraction, then we can take the diffraction pattern formed and do some mathemagic to figure out the electron density of the crystallised protein and from there, work out the protein's structure

C++ helps with the mathemagic part of that, especially because by "high throughput", I mean that the research facility has a particle accelerator that's over 1km long, which cost multiple billions because it can shoot super bright X-rays at a rate of up to 27,000 per second. It's the kind of place that's used by many research groups, and you have to apply for "beam time". The sample is piped in front of the beam and the result is thousands of diffraction patterns that need to be matched to particular crystals. That's where the challenge comes in.

I am probably explaining this badly because it's pretty cutting edge stuff that's adjacent to what I know, but I know some of the software used is called CrystFEL. My understanding is that learning C++ was necessary for extending or modifying existing software tools, and for troubleshooting anomalous results.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Probably makes 7 figures working for big pharma though

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Last time I did anything on the job with C++ was about 8 years ago. Here's what I learned. It may still be relevant.

  • C++14 was alright, but still wasn't everything you need. The language has improved a lot since, so take this with a grain of salt. We had to use Boost to really make the most of things and avoid stupid memory management problems through use of smart (ref-counted) pointers. The overhead was worth it.
  • C++ relies heavily on idioms for good code quality that can only be learned from a book and/or the community. "RAII" is a good example here. The language itself is simply too flexible and low-level to force that kind of behavior on you. To make matters worse, idiomatic practices wind up adding substantial weight to manual code review, since there's no other way to enforce them or check for their absence.
  • I wound up writing a post-processor to make sense of template errors since it had a habit of completely exploding any template use to the fullest possible expression expansion; it was like typedefs didn't exist. My tool replaced common patterns with expressions that more closely resembled our sourcecode^1^. This helped a lot with understanding what was actually going wrong. At the same time, it was ridiculous that was even necessary.
  • A team style guide is a hard must with C++. The language spec is so mindbogglingly huge that no two "C++ programmers" possess the same experience with the language. Yes, their skillsets will overlap, but the non-overlapping areas can be quite large and have profound ramifications on coding preferences. This is why my team got into serious disagreements with style and approach without one: there was no tie-breaker to end disagreement. We eventually adopted one after a lot of lost effort and hurt feelings.
  • Coding C++ is less like having a conversation with the target CPU and more like a conversation with the compiler. Templates, const, constexpr, inline, volatile, are all about steering the compiler to generate the code you want. As a consequence, you spend a lot more of your time troubleshooting code generation and compilation errors than with other languages.
  • At some point you will need valgrind or at least a really good IDE that's dialed in for your process and target platform. Letting the rest of the team get away without these tools will negatively impact the team's ability to fix serious problems.
  • C++ assumes that CPU performance and memory management are your biggest problems. You absolutely have to be aware of stack allocation, heap allocation, copies, copy-free, references, pointers, and v-tables, which are needed to navigate the nuances of code generation and how it impacts run-time and memory.
  • Multithreading in C++14 was made approachable through Boost and some primitives built on top of pthreads. Deadlocks and races were a programmer problem; the language has nothing to help you here. My recommendation: take a page from Go's book. Use a really good threadsafe mutable queue, copy (no references/pointers) everything into it, and use it for moving mutable state between threads until performance benchmarks tell you to do otherwise.
  • Test-driven design and DevOps best-practice is needed to make any C++ project of scale manageable. I cannot stress this enough. Use every automated quality gate you can to catch errors before live/integration testing, as using valgrind and other in-situ tools can be painful (if not impossible).

1 - I borrowed this idea from working on J2EE apps, of all places, where stack traces get so huge/deep that there are plugins designed to filter out method calls (sometimes, entire libraries) that are just noise. The idea of post-processing errors just kind of stuck after that - it's just more data, after all.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Reminds me of the joke about the guy falling from the top of the Empire State Building who, half way down, was heard saying: "Well, so far, so good"

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

In my country C++ is taught as a base language along with Scratch(not a language, but yk what I mean). I recently started learning Kotlin with Jetpack Compose (the only sane way to learn Kotlin) and I realized I wasted two years of my life learning C++, with 5 more to come as it is mandatory in ICT classes.... :((

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Which programming language would you like to teach if you were a teacher? P.D I also learned C++ as my first language

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I started to learn C++ once, had semester and couldn't wrap my head around the object oriented part. At some point I looked at learning objective C on my own, though I didn't really use it. I had a 1000x better understanding after an hour.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I learned c from a book from the 80s and then skipped to rust.

The only time I touched c++ was modding games in the early aughts and to try it for a couple coding challenges. I've heard templates are a thing of note when it comes to complications but not sure.

As for c# ... We don't talk about that (jk. I had to do it for one or two projects and played with unity a bit ages ago)

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

I actually just started learning C++ today.

If Lovecraft were alive today one of his stories would start with this line.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

Instructions unclear, attempted to learn JS

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

We used C++ based software. Who need sanity ? Clearly overrated

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The image doesn't open for me. But I guess the joke still works in a way.

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