this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2024
850 points (96.0% liked)
Fuck Cars
9661 readers
64 users here now
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
Rules
1. Be Civil
You may not agree on ideas, but please do not be needlessly rude or insulting to other people in this community.
2. No hate speech
Don't discriminate or disparage people on the basis of sex, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or sexuality.
3. Don't harass people
Don't follow people you disagree with into multiple threads or into PMs to insult, disparage, or otherwise attack them. And certainly don't doxx any non-public figures.
4. Stay on topic
This community is about cars, their externalities in society, car-dependency, and solutions to these.
5. No reposts
Do not repost content that has already been posted in this community.
Moderator discretion will be used to judge reports with regard to the above rules.
Posting Guidelines
In the absence of a flair system on lemmy yet, let’s try to make it easier to scan through posts by type in here by using tags:
- [meta] for discussions/suggestions about this community itself
- [article] for news articles
- [blog] for any blog-style content
- [video] for video resources
- [academic] for academic studies and sources
- [discussion] for text post questions, rants, and/or discussions
- [meme] for memes
- [image] for any non-meme images
- [misc] for anything that doesn’t fall cleanly into any of the other categories
Recommended communities:
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Why is "motorcycle" in a different category than "Drive Alone"?
Climate impact is significantly less for motorcycle riders, that's the only mitigation I can think of.
That's hardly self evident.
The map has no information to specify its intent or methodology. Without that, you can assign whatever meaning to it you like.
Motorcycles are one of the worst forms of transportation.
1 rider, 1 engine often regulated well below what automotive emissions standards require.
My understanding is that motorcycles (especially modern motorcycles) produce significantly less CO2 equiv than modern cars - in no small part due to their ability to not get caught in traffic.
Most commuters are 1 person per vehicle.
CO2 is only a small part of the story
https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/greenspace/story/2011-09-28/mythbusters-asks-are-motorcycles-greener-than-cars
So yeah. Not exactly great. And btw our option on those hydrocarbons have changed a LOT in the last 13 years when this was published. See the decline of diesels post dieselgate.
That story is over a decade old and looks at motorcycles that aren't anything close to modern standards.
Modern 4 stroke motorcycles are more fuel efficient and all around less polluting than cars.
None of this really matters as the best form of transportation is obviously mass transit, walking or bicycle but it does make sense to split out motorcycle.
That’s just not true though.
Motorcycles do not have to meet the same stringent requirements as cars because they aren’t classified as cars.
This holds true in most “western” nations.
They’re allowed higher emissions and put out more emissions per person than cars do.
You guys can downvote me all you want but 1 person in 1 car emits less emissions than 1 person on 1 motorcycle.
This is NOT an argument for cars but an argument AGAINST a single user motorized transport.
This doesn’t negate the argument against cars but it’s strange to see people arguing FOR another form of motorized transport rather than walkable cities OR mass public transportation.
[citation needed]
Outlandish claims are fine, but you need to either substantiate them or stop complaining that people don't believe your obviously-false bullshit.
Wow, I didn’t realize my EV has a smaller carbon footprint than a bus!
That is cool but keep in mind that's for a petrol bus I assume. It also doesn't include cradle to grave co2 emissions (per person, cars use way more raw materials than buses). That's also a good argument for motorcycles: from an environmental perspective they just use way less stuff
You do know that almost all modern on-road motorcycles are CARB-compliant, right? Oh, but what about those small motorcycles? https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/us-motorcycles-emissions/ As of 2006, all Class I and II motorcycles must be compliant with few exceptions.
I don't know where you are getting your numbers for your claims. These are some significant assertions that, even prima facie, don't make sense.
Even from just a thermodynamics standpoint, this assertion not only feels wrong, but is wrong. Maybe a two-stroke motorcycle could out-emit a modern SOV.
Can you link those findings? I find this hard to believe since cars are so much heavier than motorcycles. Maybe a full van, is better emissions per capita? But with a single user for a car I am skeptical but open to being shown to be wrong
2022 numbers show motorcycles at 2/3rds the GHG emissions as cars.
So 2 people in 1 car is better than 2 motorbikes but 1 motorbike is easily better than 1 car.
Which numbers? Have a link?
Thanks
I’m trying to figure out what their assumptions are for occupancy. I think I saw that a vehicle was assumed to just be driver +25 kg for cars, but I’m not 100% sure I’m reading that correctly
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/13171223
One, they are much better on gas use. So less energy in general to move them.
Two, they are much lighter, which as we are discovering with electric vehicles, matters a great deal in how horrible the tire wear is (and remember that 28% of microplastics in the environment come from car tire degradation alone!).
Three, for traffic purposes, they are much, much better. They are smaller, so recall that picture that floats around of how much space 100 passengers takes up. They aren't near the train/bus level, but are closer to the bicycle portion of the picture than the cars. It becomes even better if they are scooters compared to motorcycles (scooters are generally even lighter and have smaller engines with better gas usage). I always hear the stat thrown around that if 25% of individuals switched to motorcycles, modern traffic jams in cities (in America, I guess, where I hear it uttered) would nearly disappear.
They pollute more and use more energy to move a single person.
Motorcycles are worse than cars…
How exactly does a motorcycle that gets 60 mpg (3.92 l/100 km) take more energy to move a single person that a car that gets 25 mpg (9.4 l/100 km)? Notice that almost nobody carpools in America, which is the subject of this post.
Also note that almost all motorcycles sold worldwide comply with Euro 5 emissions standards.
Emissions systems. Do you realize just how toxic something without a catalytic converter is? Let alone one that doesn’t work for shit like the types installed on bikes.
Also a car is probably FAR more efficient at burning fuel than a bike. The efficient burn lets out even less toxic gasses despite using 3x the fuel.
Take the totally emissions free lawn mower market and scale down emissions a bit since bikes do have some emissions equipment and electronic fuel injection. But they really don’t have much, and they’re very often just removed/bypassed.
https://psci.princeton.edu/tips/2020/5/11/law-maintenance-and-climate-change
Why the fuck would someone compare a shitass lawn mower to performance road hardware?
On emissions, read and learn: https://www.motorcycle.com/features/what-you-need-to-know-about-euro-5-emission-standards-for-motorcycles.html
Thermodynamically, your argument doesn't make sense either as you are still injecting 3x or more waste heat into the atmosphere, nevermind the CO2 (which is a crazy thing to ignore in this discussion).
The last part of your statement is entirely an opinion based in ignorance, people are generally not interested in dramatically altering the reliability of their machines, and manufacturers keep the cat separate from the muffler for bikes where the frame has room. Have you done your own moto maintenance? What bikes have you got?
Because I didn't feel like making that comment a copy paste of my other comment.
... Did you even click your link? They didn't even mention CO2.
Greenhouse gasses are the primary issue. The waste heat you produce with a car is nothing compared to what the sun is pelting us with. It's the greenhouse gasses that trap in the heat from the sun (and your engine). Even bothering to mention it is hilarious.
I had to look it up because it's not even something I bothered to consider. According to this calculator my car produces about 404,000/4.04 x 10^5 watt hours of heat going through 15 gallons/56 liters of gas. The solar constant aka energy entering our atmosphere is just over 1360 watts per square meter. In that same 6 hours the sun is gracing us with 8100 watt hours of energy, and in total 1.041 × 10^18. Or hell the energy just getting to the ground near me averages out to over 5kwh a square meter over a 24 hour period. Unless I'm road tripping my car absorbs more energy than its engine outputs in a given day.
Engine waste heat is nothing.
Also that's just looking at global warming related things, there's also there's NOX and it's extremely harmful to human health. Euro 5 standard rates both bikes and cars at 0.060 g/km. Cars obviously need a lot more oomf to get going, yet they still have the same maximum output.
It's been a few years since I've owned a bike (mostly dirtbikes but some street). My last bike was a ~2011 Ninja 650. But I've worked on them since I was a kid up until maybe 5 years ago? I do however do all of the maintenance on all of my ICE (cars, mowers, scooter thing etc), and what I do care about is the emissions and their effects.
Well, fuckwit, good job on proving that you know how to multiply a couple of constants and volumes together, congrats!
Consider the amount of energy that goes into welding a large automobile frame, casting high carbon conrods and crankshafts, producing all the plastic that goes into the 3100lb ~~clown tank~~ dodge ram you drive since you're no longer safe on two wheels.
Holistically, quite a lot less energy goes into production of a motorcycle, and furthermore is tremendously easier to recycle in comparison. The much lighter mass from a smaller frame means less tire particulate, less brake dust, and equally important, less time idling in traffic because of lane splitting.
Quality thinking in systems analysis is why engineers make money, versus fuckwits who merely multiply a few constants.
Fuel pump pressures need to creep up to afford DFI (direct fuel injection) which has made up a lot of modern ICE efficiency and emissions improvements. The real solution long-term is electric, but energy density in the batteries needs to creep up a bit, which I'm waiting for with Samsung's new solid state batteries.
Motorcycles use 50% less fuel than cars. And at least for the daily commute, both carry the same amount of people (one). Additionally, they need about 1/4 of parking space.
Because motorcycles take up way less space than a car